This week on All The Best, stories about weird and wonderful hobbies and what drives us to them.
Hobbies
In our first story, a university student dissects recent Australian Bureau of Statistics data suggesting a gender gap in time spent on hobbies.
Molly Frew produced the story, which featured postdoctoral research fellow August Harrington, a psychology expert from the University of Melbourne.
Gaming
In our second story, imagine trying to fit into the online gaming world with angry humanoid figures with scary eyes who may rant about entitled women ruining their hobbies. This piece reveals a female perspective on gender discrimination when gaming.
This story was written and produced and written by Arshia Anand.
Lego
In our third story, after finding the Lego clubroom, an innkeeper from the club informs that the assortment of coloured bricks “can be used as a tool for mindfulness and relaxation.”
This story was written and produced and written by Georgie Preston.
Boxing
In our fourth story, “Ding Ding,” boxing training is used to relax and distract some from muscle soreness and a waring body or mind.
This story was written and produced and written by Yuanyuan Zhang.
LARPing
Our final story involves escaping into the narrative of characters dressed up in armoured gear all in the name of Live-Action Role-Playing, also known as LARPing.
This story was written and produced and written by Olivia Tan.
Today’s stories were produced as part of a collaboration between All The Best, the University of Melbourne and the Science Gallery. Unimelb Masters of journalism students created audio works relating to the theme of ‘distraction’. Special thanks to Louisa Lim, Mell Chun, Dan Semo and Corey Martin and to All The Best mentors Persephone Waxman, Thomas Philips, Lisa Divissi and Melanie Bakewell.
All The Best Credits
Executive Producer: Phoebe Adler-Ryan
Editorial Producer: Melanie Bakewell
Host: Madhuraa Prakash
Transcript
Madhura Prakash: Stories from around the corner and around the country. You’re listening to All The Best. Proudly supported by the Art Gallery of New South Wales. You’re listening to All The Best from FBI Radio 94. 5. I’m Madhura Prakash. Before we get into this week’s stories, I’d like to take a moment to acknowledge that I’m recording from stolen Gadigal land.
And pay my respect to Gadigal elders past and present. And also recognise that the area where FBI Radio is situated, Redfern, has long been a place of storytelling, strength, resistance and resilience for First Nations communities. This week, we begin with a question. What brings you to our FAIR audio storytelling program?
Are you seeking an escape from your troubles? Looking for a bit of joy to pass the time? It’s the reason why many people pick up hobbies after all. Hobbies like binging podcasts or playing Dungeons and Dragons. In the spirit of that hobby, I’d like you to try and listen to today’s episode as someone else.
Someone like you, but different. Someone with the strength and honour of a paladin. Or the wit and magic of a sorcerer. Maybe you’ll assume the agility and discipline of a monk. Or the speed and sneakery of a rogue. Okay, are you ready for today’s adventure? Good. Your path leads you to our first story today.
One about a gendered gap in work versus leisure. To listen to this story, you just need to pass a skill check in persuasion.
Molly Frew: Ladies, are you sick and tired of your food burning on the stove when someone, or something, interrupts your cooking? Well, now you don’t have to worry, with the revolutionary new Distractinator 3000, a one of its kind automatic stirring spoon that clips to the side of your pots and pans and stirs for you.
So, if you have to chop up some veggies while your sauce simmers, or your husband wants you to make him a coffee, you can be distracted with ease. Ladies, head into store today and get yourself a Distractinator 3000. Your cooking, and your husband and kids, will thank you for it. That sounds like an ad from the 1950s, right?
A lot has changed since then. However, the Australian Bureau of Statistics most recent time use survey, released in 2022, revealed that on average, Australian women spend 1 hour and 19 minutes more on unpaid work activities than men every day, and spend an average of 43 minutes less on recreation and leisure.
I spoke to Dr Auguste Harrington, a postdoctoral research fellow in gender psychology at the University of Melbourne, about why this is. So, have you ever heard of the idea of a gender hobby gap?
Dr. Auguste Harrington: Yeah, nothing’s come up. From a theoretical point of view, though, it makes sense. As Societies around the world, um, trend towards greater egalitarianism in roles, we see that women are entering the workforce to a greater extent than they have in the past.
You may expect that that would also balance other roles in the household, but actually we don’t find that to be the case necessarily. It tends to be rather that women also maintain much of the household roles as well. So you find that actually women are taking on more now than they have in the past because of that sort of like expectation to have it all.
Molly: And how about if women have kids, are there any trends there?
Dr. Harrington: I was just looking at a paper before, actually, it basically said that as children, especially become part of the relationship, but also not necessarily, women take on more productive activities, um, especially when children are involved. So women’s roles and leisure pursuits tend to involve things that can involve their children and that will interest their children whereas men tend to persist with leisure activities driven by their own interests.
Molly: I’m also curious about if this affects young women without kids, like myself. So I asked some young women around Melbourne about their hobbies, and this is what they said.
Anon Interviewees:
Yes, I do aerial hoop, which is the type of circus performance.
So, my hobbies are running, and I love to cook, but I’ve been considering a lot more recently that they are productive. I live with a male, and I would I watch him, he plays video games, he is able to switch off and it’s not something I’m able to do.
I usually do like Pilates during my free time. Part of it for my health to maintain like an active lifestyle. It’s also like a fun thing to de stress.
I paint and I also play piano, so that’s what I do for fun.
Um, I recently started going Pilates, so Pilates and I love reading.
I read pretty much, yeah.
I have zero hobbies, but my partner has 20. He works 60 hours a week and he still has 20 jobs, 20 hobbies.
Eating, sleeping, drinking, reading books, binge watching things. We were just talking about that. That’s pretty much the extent of it.
So I really like to knit and crochet, and I like to read and go on walks.
Molly: I can definitely relate to some of the women I spoke to. One of the reasons I became interested in this topic to begin with is because some female friends and I have been talking a lot recently about how we don’t feel like we have many, if any, hobbies compared to the men in our lives. As it turns out, we also have less free time.
In the Timeuse survey, Australian men aged 15 to 24 reported 1 hour and 17 minutes more free time each day than women in the same age group. They also average 1 hour and 32 minutes more on recreation and leisure per day. So, why is this the case? One explanation could be the pressures placed on us to look a certain way, and how this impacts how we spend our time.
Dr. Harrington: I feel like there’s a definite pressure for women to always wear at least some makeup. If you consider the time allotment dedicated to personal grooming, for instance. Everything from makeup, to hair care, to skin care, um, that’s, that’s a lot of time, it’s a lot of work, and it’s a lot of money. And so if you were to consider that as to not be a hobby, which I’m not necessarily saying either way, then you could see that women would have a lot less personal time to devote to other pursuits.
Molly: Definitely. And a lot of women do makeup as a hobby, but for those of us who don’t, there’s still an expectation that we do it regardless.
Dr. Harrington: Interesting that like, there’s almost a mandatory hobby for women.
Molly: I wonder how many hobbies actually feel mandatory for women. It could be makeup, it could be exercise, or if you’re a mother, perhaps it’s choosing a specific hobby because it can involve your kids.
And if they feel like an obligation or are in pursuit of an unattainable beauty standard we feel pressured to achieve, should we even call them hobbies? Because, are they really a distraction, like hobbies are meant to be? Or do they just make us focus more on the pressures that compelled us to do them in the first place?
Madhura: That story was produced by Molly Frew.
You’ve come across a monstrous being, the figure looks humanoid, but has angry red eyes, red as rubies. He begins explaining the rules of D&D to you even though you’ve played for years, and rants with anger about entitled women ruining his hobby. Now is your chance to strike a blow to the creature while listening to our next story about gender discrimination in the gaming world.
Roll your attack.
Arshia Anand: In a time where, wait. In a time where gaming has evolved to become an omnipresent part of our lives, the label gamer has undertaken a complex and often misunderstood meaning. Ranging from the distractions of lengthy gaming sessions to toxic masculinity in the gaming community, Arshia Anand, reporting for All the Best and the University of Melbourne, unpacked the significance of what it means to be a gamer in the 21st century.
Close your eyes. What comes to mind when I say the word gamer? Is it an aggressive teenage boy? Or is it a middle aged man who lives in his mother’s basement? Let’s ask avid gamer Yash Tambay.
Yash Tambay: In my mind, a gamer is someone who plays a lot, but is also good at the game that he plays at. So, if I take Call of Duty for example, so maybe he’ll be someone who has a prestige rank, but also someone who’s really good at his game.
Arshia: What are your thoughts on the gendered nature of the gaming community?
Yash: I feel like it’s getting better. So you have streamers like Kday, Valkyrae, and these streamers started off playing kind of bad, but now even they’ve improved, and I think their community has also grown a lot. So I think it used to be bad, where I think gamer girls would get stereotyped as being kind of like the weakest member of the team. And if you had a gamer girl in your team, you would kind of be disappointed, saying that, oh, I’m going to lose easily. But I think apart from that, it’s a pretty positive community. Everybody just loves playing the game that they have.
Jess Rawlings: Women are less likely to identify with that label of a gamer than men, and nearly half of all gamers are women. The average age of a gamer in Australia is 35, which doesn’t really meet that stereotype of, you know, a young teenager.
Arshia: This is Jess Rawlings, a language pathologist currently researching the experiences of women in online gaming spaces.
Jess: I think it’s really interesting that it’s so individual. And I know for terms like girl gamer too, there’s, I guess, stereotypes of, you know, they might be just looking to get attention or, you know, the ‘ fake girl gamer’, if they only play The Sims. And that’s silly because The Sims is a game, you know, it’s not any less valid than playing Call of Duty or Fortnite or Halo or anything like that.
So things like being immersed in a storyline or, you know, in a fantasy environment. Or for some women being able to experiment with identity and challenging gender norms so, you know, maybe playing a beefy, you know, powerful character who takes the lead or for some of them, you know, customizing their character if they were questioning their gender, you know, playing around with different ways of gender representation as well. And there were a couple of studies I read too, which were really interesting, which sort of found a bit of an intersection between their perception of their own gender identity and you know their own womanhood and the relationship between that and then how they identified with that traditionally masculine gaming space.
Arshia: What role do video games play in the realm of distraction?
Jess: It’s a balance like anything so you know if someone’s playing so much you know games or they’re playing so much basketball but that’s coming at the expense of other responsibilities or you know their school work or hanging out with their family, other social interactions outside those spaces, then I would say, you know, that’s getting more into a distraction or maybe, you know, reevaluating their relationship with the activity.
Arshia: Why do we game?
Jess: Distraction, escapism and, you know, supporting their own emotional regulation. So after a stressful day, playing a relaxing game to kind of detach, you know, if they’re feeling sad, playing an uplifting game or, you know, maybe a sad game, you know, when you watch a really sad movie when you’re feeling sad. Um, but just sitting with those feelings, um, for some women, it was around social connections. So I read one great study about, um, a mum and she was never particularly interested in games herself, but started gaming as a way to connect with her kids and now plays on her own.
Arshia: Let’s hear from Arya Mudholkar, a Twitch streamer who’s currently pursuing a full-time career in gaming.
Arya Mudholkar: I just call myself a gamer I would say. If I’m around men, I’m more likely to be labelled a gamer girl. I don’t mind the label gamer girl, cause I am a gamer girl. I would say I like using that, especially if I’m streaming, it gets me that money but then there’s the whole thing of me being true to myself or wanting that money. And you get to this point where you just don’t want to keep talking back and being like, I’m just a gamer. I’m not a gamer girl sort of thing. So I don’t mind going by gamer girl, but I prefer gamer cause I’m just another person who plays the game, but it’s just telling of what the landscape of gaming is at the moment for women. It’s getting better, but we’re not there yet.
Madhura: That story was produced by Arshia Anand.
After your fight with the monster, it’s time for a long rest. You take shelter in a nearby tavern. The Common room glows with warm candlelight and fellow travelers talk quietly with their companions.
At one of these tables, you find an assortment of coloured bricks. “These’ ll help you relax,” the Innkeeper tells you.
Can LEGO really be used as a tool for mindfulness and relaxation?
Our next story explores this.
Eve Sellers: It’s just click, click, click. Just one brick on top of the other, mixing that colour with that colour.
Georgie Preston: I found the LEGO club room by following the trail of members lugging in their LEGO in shopping bags. At reception, I was instructed to pull up a chair at one of the tables where members sat working on their sets and chatting. I sat next to Eve Sellers, a painter working on her current hobby project, a cyberpunk village in LEGO
Eve: One of the struggles about being an artist is that there’s no constraints. So you start with a blank canvas, there’s an infinite number of colours and shapes you can create. So, at times it doesn’t always suit me, it can be overwhelming. I find that LEGO is, it’s constrained. There’s I think 36 colours, that’s it. You can’t mix and match. I bought an architecture set from LEGO, and finished it, I enjoyed the build. But when it’s finished, you close the doors and everything’s shut. There’s no story. So, I didn’t like that very much so I broke that big set down and built my own version and I attached some hinges to a wall so that it would open up a bit like a dollhouse and built interiors, made furniture out of LEGO and lots of mini-stories.
Georgie: Eve spent about 9 months working on a Christmas themed village, which she exhibited at Bendigo Bricks in March. Straight out of a fairytale, it was replete with scenes such as Santa fishing for his Christmas lunch and punters sipping their pints at the Village pub. For the first time, eve found herself surrounded by other adult LEGO fans.
Eve: It actually was amazing to see all these adults so into LEGO . Like I kind of thought I was the only one, you know.
Georgie: In recent years, the children’s toy market has become oversaturated with competition from video games and apps. To deal with this, LEGO is taking more notice of its adult market, who can afford to splurge. In marketing LEGO to adults, their team has cleverly identified how building with LEGO stimulates the mindfulness benefits of repetitive tasks. Along with the creative benefits which come from playing. The sound I’m playing in the background is taken from a 2021 LEGO ad called ‘Find Your Flow. ‘ In it, a woman sits at her kitchen table building a model pyramid of Giza, letting the worries of her stressful workday float away into the meditative sounds of the bricks.
At the end, the tagline reads, Adults Welcome. Hanging out at the club room, it’s clear that LEGO has something to offer adults. But I was skeptical if marketing LEGO as a mindfulness practice was a little contrived. Was it just a crude way to justify spending money and time on children’s toys?
Matt Roberts: I really use it as a focus for my well being. Like, it’s just a little plastic brick, but the power of that brick, what you can create, your imagination, and also how it helps you have focus to allow you to live day to day.
Georgie: I met Matt Roberts, who found LEGO after he lost his travel business during COVID. For him, LEGO has helped with his mental health.
Matt: Had depression I guess my whole life, wasn’t diagnosed until I was in my 30s, and I find that it’s a really good place where I just sit at my LEGO corner, put the lights on, vinyl on, and I just listen to music, just build.
Georgie: Without any experience, Matt began working on a huge Star Wars creation that quickly spiralled out of control, becoming an exhibition at Brickvention last year.
Matt: Spent about 10, 000 dollars and built a, well, they call it the, the, Matt the Star Wars guy with the big build. It ended up being 3 metres by 1. 2 metres. And it was just crazy. I had people 2, or 3 deep at times at Brick vention and it was just amazing. I was humbled that people enjoyed my art.
Georgie: From there, he met like-minded LEGO enthusiasts.
Matt: A lot of people go, oh, you’re a nerd, you do LEGO, you do this. But it’s a, it’s a big community. The one thing is, there’s no ego about it. It’s like, can you teach me how to do this technique? Can you help me find these parts? It’s all about, yes, how can we help? And it’s a common interest. You don’t have to talk about yourself. You don’t have to say, Hey, I struggle every day. We’ve all got that one common thing, which is this little plastic brick and we just come together.
Georgie: Clearly Lego has many more benefits for adults than just mindfulness it is a real tool to combat mental health issues through creativity and play. But still, I felt this explanation tied neatly in a bow by LEGO’S marketing team, didn’t quite cover it.
At the meeting, I was lent a LEGO Arc de Triomphe model to work on myself. As I sat there, I realised I had forgotten just how much I enjoyed LEGO. At the end of the day, all justifications aside, LEGO is just plain fun.
Madhura: That story was produced by Georgie Preston.
You wake up the next day, muscles sore from the previous day’s work.
You decide that maybe you’ll spend the day training, refining your skills for future battles. As you train, you find yourself getting into a familiar rhythm. It feels therapeutic. You soon forget the weariness in your body and mind.
Our next story looks at training as a form of distraction, specifically in boxing.
Yuanyuan Zhang: Hi everyone, I’m Yuanyuan Zhang the host for today. Have you heard people of different backgrounds saying they love boxing? What? You still think boxing is all about violence? Personally speaking, I have trained for boxing for five years. I have found boxing a great way for distraction and relaxation. And interestingly, I’m not the only one that thinks like that.
Anon interviewees: I see boxing not just as a sport, but it’s a martial art. And like any art form, you practice it, it makes you calmer in life. And yeah, so does it make me a better person? I think. It makes me a better version of myself. Boxing is the coolest sport. So I picked the coolest sport, so I’d be the coolest kid in school. And I can show off to all my, you know, friends. Be like, hey, I’m doing boxing, yeah. Like, it’s a pretty cool, fancy sport. And I can fight, I can use it as my own weapon. I can defend myself. I think it’s just a way I can show off myself. So, you know, that’s how I started boxing and that makes me happy when I really keep my goal and then it makes me happy.
Yuanyuan: However, why can boxing make people addicted to it from a scientific angle? Why there are people regarding boxing as a way of distraction. I have interviewed Chi Yuanzhang, who studies sports psychology in the United States. After graduation, he worked as an elementary school physical education teacher, and also strength and conditioning coach assistant at UCLA. He is going to tell us the scientific secret of boxing.
Chi Yuanzhang: Well, people, uh, in, you know, in today’s society, you know, we live in a fast paced, everything, people just want to instantly gratify. I think through boxing, people will truly appreciate the meaning of delayed gratification. You know, everything takes time and you’re not going to get anything like with a quick result. So, so boxing, a fundamental footwork, you know, boxing stance, jab, prose, defense, you know, all the things you add together, it become s art. So boxing, not only as sports are going to benefit your health, also will benefit your psychological wellness.
Yuanyuan: Except from a scientific angle, other boxing lovers have special reasons why they choose boxing as a way of distraction. Stella, a freelancer writer. Once she was diagnosed with cancer, she decided to practice boxing. And after the recovery, she is still doing boxing as a hobby. For her, boxing is not only about bringing physical health, but also the great mentality.
Stella: The reason why I started boxing is after my recovery. I want to have a healthier body condition. I found boxing is a very beautiful sport . It can train the agility, speed, strength, and stamina. It is really worth the price because boxing itself can train your body in so many aspects. Also, I really love the sound of hitting the pad. Every time I hear that sound, I feel less stressful. Lastly, when I’m training for boxing, I started sparring several years ago. Sparring is a different story from just training for pads. It is a real game. You’re fighting with your brain, it gives me a stronger mentality. You need to think about the strategies. It is a very unforgettable experience.
Yuanyuan: Yes, that’s true. The beauty of boxing, the beauty of martial arts, the beauty of sparring is something that’s beyond the words. French martial arts coach Gérard Mohamed has explained the beauty of boxing sparring for us in detail.
Gérard Mohamed: Muay Thai, boxing, what we learned in the gym, it prepares you for the small ring of boxing, but it gives you values for the big ring of life. It’s like playing chess, you always have to think like, you know, two moves in advance. Do some sports that, uh, that force you to get out of your comfort zone. Do some sports that, uh, that force you to challenge yourself. Um, and, uh, yeah, it’s, uh, it’s, it prepare you for life in general. Doing martial arts is, uh, is making them feel like, you know, empowered. They feel better. They feel safer. They feel stronger.
Yuanyuan: This is boxing. This is destruction.
Madhura: That story was produced by Yuanyuan Zhang.
Now, I’m going to draw you away from our fantasy narrative for just a second, because the idea of escapism through make believe may be silly to some, but there are plenty of us who find it beneficial.
Our final story looks at this through the lens of LARPing.
Olivia Tan: It’s a dark and cool night. Your armour sticks to your clammy skin as you weave through the trees. You stumble out onto a wide battlefield filled with enemy bands hoisting banners and swords. To your left is a legion of knights, hardly taking notice of you as they pore over plans and tend to their weapons.
But up ahead, you are relieved to see a group of friendly faces beckoning you in. Your robes are the same as theirs , as are your weapons. This is the band you will fight for .
At the Western Oval in Parkville. Post code 3 0 5 2 Victoria. The Sword Craft Lap Battle has begun. LARP stands for Live Action Role Playing.
Will: Which is what I do on Friday night.
Olivia: This is Will, he’s been LARPing since last year with Sword Craft.
Will: They turn up and we do battles on an oval. We’re all in, uh, armoured gear and we’re all lined up and we all fight, you know for, you know, objectives. I’m a big fan of Dungeons and Dragons and theatre.
Olivia: Live-action role-playing brings games like these to life by physically portraying characters on location. In other words, it’s a bunch of grownups playing make-believe after work hours.
Will: I thought it was a great way to meet more people with a lot of those similar interests while also doing something physical which was something that, uh, I don’t enjoy the gym as much so I figured I needed to find something that kept me physically active.
Olivia: So, every Friday, Will and his friends get together to go into battle. They don their plastic armour and foam swords and go to war. But that’s not Will on the field. It’s Alistair Von Urik, a noble witch hunter in a tricorn hat, donning a flintlock pistol and rapier at his side.
Will: I think in many ways I created him to, one was to give him a personality that was somewhat similar to mine so he’s very much a, you know, he likes joking around with everyone. I think I made him a noble because it meant I could explain why he was there, but had very little actual knowledge in fighting at the time. As I’ve gotten better at fighting in the game, he’s gotten better at fighting.
Olivia: While Will might have based Alistair off himself, not all characters are aligned with their creator.
Will: Actually, our warband leader, uh, Salvatore, he plays a character called Silvio. Salvatore is the nicest person in the world. He’s one of the guys who helps keep the group running. You know, he’s always happy to give a lift. He’s always happy to help people out. You can talk to him at any moment in time, and he always is happy to listen to. Hilariously, his character, Silvio, who’s also, you know, is mentally the leader of our group, is this mean, uncaring, if there is any kind of love, it’s tough love. It’s like, you know, “why do I care about any of you in this group? You all maggots,” and then he has to like put his hand on his head occasionally and just be like, you know, out of character, just check. He’s like, “are you guys all right? Is everything okay?” And we’ll be like, you know, “yeah, yeah, it’s fun, keep going” .
Olivia: There’s a difference between these weekly battle style LARP events and narrative LARPing. Swordcraft members can dive deeper into the narrative with quests, which are immersive camping events held annually around Australia.
Will: In those ones, it is a lot of fun to really inhabit the character. And I think the most fun part though, you learn the character as you play the character, if that makes sense. Um, I remember there, there’ve been moments where I didn’t think my character was going to have the reaction that I ended up giving him because I hadn’t thought that far ahead , you know, he was still just bits of information and now he’s like slowly forming in my head of like, okay, this is what he wants, this is how he acts. He’s grown from just being like a couple of jokes and you know, the guy who carries, you know, a flintlock and a rapier.
Olivia: LARPing appeals to lots of people for many different reasons. For Will, it’s the community aspect.
Will: Definitely some of the most fun I’ve had is, uh, having dinner afterwards and we’re, you know, whether we’re talking about what we just did character- wise or what we did in a battle. There were nights where I haven’t been able to attend but I will make an effort to come after the game just to have dinner with everyone, uh, as we go to a Macca’s. There’s nothing funnier than seeing the new Macca’s employee see a bunch of people dressed in fantasy outfits. I mean, like, what have I walked into? Um, as we’re all ordering, like, you know, ten nuggets and chips.
Olivia: Aside from freaking out teenage McDonald’s employees, there are other benefits to McDonald’s.
Will: I know people who think for ages on their character and what they explore with that character. I know, uh, plenty of people who, like, explore their sexuality from it or have used it as a coping mechanism. I know people who have learnt leatherworking and, uh, I know people who knit and embroid patterns into their costumes and stuff like that. I’ve met people who have learnt woodworking and, you know, metal skills over it. In LARPing there’s almost that fun of, like, okay , I’ll never get to be in a movie where I get to play the leading man, but here I can actually, you know, create my own character and he, you know, at least is the, in my story is, you know, the hero of my, you know, every character is a hero of their own stories.
Madhura: That story was produced by Olivia Tan. And that’s where we’ll end our adventure for today. Thanks for playing. Today’s stories were produced as part of a collaboration between All the Best, the University of Melbourne and the Science Gallery. UniMelb Masters of Journalism students created audio works relating to the theme of distraction.
Special thanks to Louisa Lim, Mel Chun, Dan Semo and Corey Martin and to all the best mentors, Persephone Waxman, Thomas Philips , Lisa Divissi and Melanie Bakewell.
All The Best would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the Lands on which we make these stories and pay our respects to Elders past and present.
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Shining Bird composed our theme music and Annie Hamilton designed the artwork.
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I’m Madhura Prakash. Thanks for listening.